Read the full transcript of Episode 14 of the NAIS New View EDU podcast, which features John Gulla and Donna Orem joining host Tom Fish for an in-depth discussion on how independent schools are situated during this pivotal moment in society—and how our school cultures can contribute to everything from improving educational practices to reviving civil discourse and civic engagement.
Tim Fish: Today on New View EDU, I'm excited to welcome back Donna Orem, president of NAIS. And also today, we'll be having a conversation with John Gulla, executive director of the Edward E. Ford Foundation. John became the executive director of the Edward E. Ford Foundation in 2013, and E.E. Ford in its over 60 years of making grants has distributed over 125 million dollars to over 900 different independent schools. In his capacity at the foundation, John has visited over 450 schools around the country.
Prior to joining the foundation, John was the head of school at the Blake school in Minneapolis. He's also held administrative and teaching positions at Riverdale Country School, Isador Newman and St. Anne's in Brooklyn. A graduate of Teachers' College, Columbia University and Amherst College, John grew up the son of two public school teachers in Red Sox nation, just outside of Boston. He helped found Fund for Teachers and has served on its board since its inception, having chaired it for many years. He has also served on a number of other boards, including High Mountain Institute, Isaacs, NAIS, Milkweed Editions and the Minnesota Chapter of the ACLU.
He and his wife, Andrea, have two grown sons and live in Brooklyn. John and Donna, welcome back and welcome to New View EDU. We are so excited for this conversation.
Let's jump right in. The past couple of years have forced our schools to reimagine, to double down on the essentials and to work tirelessly, to hold all our communities together.
It has been a monumental effort for our schools. As we look out to the future, I'm curious for the two of you, what inspires you about our schools and what they've been up to for the last few years, and where do you think we need to focus our attention as an industry? Donna, you wanna lead us off?
Donna Orem: Well, I couldn't be more proud of our schools, first of all, because leading through uncertainty is difficult for anybody. But I think for school leaders, often schools were on the front lines of doing this work. They were having to make decisions and in many cases really have to hold two very different types of roles at schools, often opposite roles.
You know, sometimes they had to lead with humility. Other times they had to be the hero, making quick decisions. They had to be both strategic and tactical. So, you know, it's just really hard to continue changing those roles. I also think, you know, what's been very difficult is they had to live in the moment because there were so many issues to deal with and clearly they needed to do that.
But at the same time, they had to plan for the future because this is a time where there is lots of opportunity to think about what's happening. And I think right to jump into what's happening right now, we're firmly in the fourth industrial revolution. And that's really creating a lot of change and acceleration of change in our society. So, you know, I think as school leaders think about education, you know, it's not, it's no longer just educating kids for what are jobs or opportunities in the present, but it's educating them for things that we haven't even considered yet. So I think what's really challenging for leaders today is, you're not necessarily educating kids for some one thing. You're educating them for any possibility. So I think that is a tall challenge, which leaders are thinking through today as they take hold of risk, really engage in experimentation, and try to come up with strategies that will ensure that all children are successful in this challenging future.
So I'll stop there for a moment because I'd love to hear John's perspective as well.
John Gulla: Well, first thanks, Donna and Tim for the invitation, Tim for your gracious introduction. And I agree, Donna, with very much of what you've said. Tim, your question about what inspires me is the same thing that, that has for over 40 years of working in independent schools. Those students who are enrolled in our schools and, and those teachers who are committed to the work of independent schools continue to be the inspiration.
I think it's fair to say that the last two years have been more challenging than any other two year period, certainly in my experience. And I, I think we'd have to go back quite a ways to find a period that had delivered the magnitude of challenge that the pandemic has. There are an enormous number of challenges but there are, as Donna suggests, also a number of reasons for sort of optimism.
One of the things that, that has struck me is the agility and flexibility that independent school communities have shown. In the entire pre-K to 16 world of education, I don't think there is a subset that pivoted as quickly and as effectively to the necessity of remote learning as did independent schools.
And one of the silver linings of this incredibly challenging pandemic period has been the required technological education of some who might have been a little bit more reticent to use the full range of tools that are now at our disposal. I think the pandemic also taught us the things that we may have thought were impossible really weren't. Who would have imagined that within a period of a couple weeks in, in March of 2020 that all that we do could be delivered virtually without any more preparation than those couple of weeks? And yet we did it. It wasn't perfect. But we did it in an effort to try to serve the kids who are enrolled in the schools.
As I look forward, coming out, eventually, of this pandemic, I think there are enormous number of challenges and I'm concerned about them. I'm concerned about what I think may be an almost catastrophic teacher shortage. I think this is incredibly difficult and I'm sure that we probably will touch on this, but to get into, to some of the pressures that classroom teachers are feeling as a factionalized country fights out some of its battles in the classroom with the teachers as the, those who are trying to navigate that.
I think that is a huge challenge. I think student mental health is a challenge. Some of that preceded the pandemic. I think there are a lot of things that have been going on in independent schools that didn't always make for environment for some ambitious young people. But I think the pandemic, we are only beginning to understand what it means to have been a, an adolescent, for example, never mind a younger child, wrestling with this epochal period of time.
Tim Fish: Yeah. You know, just to build on that. I mean, I think you're right on about this notion of student health and wellbeing. It's something we've talked about, Donna and I have talked about in other podcasts, about this idea of what do you put in the center of school now, right? And this idea of wellbeing of the community is a huge part of it.
I mean, Donna, in your On My Mind column in the winter 2020 issue of Independent School Magazine, you write about civic engagement and the imperative for our schools to do what we do uniquely well. To build community. I love that's how you end that article. I'm curious for both of you, if we sort of go on this idea of civic engagement and the polarity and tension that's in our schools today, you know, how do we lean into, how do we help our schools lean into the issues of civil discourse? And the importance of a courageous commitment to the essence of good faith debate in the academy. You know, what is, what do you think that can look like and how can we continue to do that really important work today?
Donna Orem: You know, it's such a great question, Tim. And I'm gonna start with a story that's pre pandemic. The Atlantic did an interesting study. I think it was in 2018 or 19. To understand what was driving this polarization and when it, whether it was nationwide. And they found that, you know, in fact, a lot of it is because we are now engaged in what researchers call civic deserts, where there just aren't opportunities for people to meet and issues and address problems together. And the pandemic has really caused a lot of us to be much more isolated and to look inward. And, and what I loved about the research that the Atlantic did is they, they, they actually looked at all of the counties in the United States. And wanted to identify, were some more tolerant than others, and why?
And they wrote an article about a county in upstate New York and they visited there and they talked with a pastor. And he talked about a group of men that he brought together to actually meet and talk once a week. And they started with breakfast, and they might read together. And I just wanna read a quote because I think it really gets at the heart of when we think about community, what we have to, to think about.
And he said this: "Once you're fed and you're with friends, you're a better person. The second secret is to talk for a long time. We talk about it long enough until we realize how much we don't know. I think that's really crucial to think about. Once you realize how much you don't know, the honest conversation comes out."
I think there's a lot that we can take there about how we can build community at schools. We are uniquely positioned to be places where people of difference come together and can begin to talk about these differences. But I think we have to start talking. That doesn't mean that we agree with one another, but we have to talk long enough.
And I think, you know, once we do start to talk, we realize there is a lot that we don't know about each other. I also think compounding this, and there's been a lot of research on this, is that probably for the last 40 to 50 years, trust in core institutions has been declining. And that's not just education, but it's all the core institutions that make up the fabric of our society.
So, you know, we need to rebuild that trust. We need to rebuild that trust in each other. So I think there are a few things as schools that we need to talk about. First is I think we need to look at both the student and adult communities together because I think anxiety within one is transferred to the other. So we have to look systemically at how we build wellbeing in schools.
You know, second, we need to start talking to each other, and we need to set some ground rules around that so that we have discussions where people are realizing what they don't know and are seeking to find more. I also think, you know, we can think outside of our own walls too, as we need to build community within schools, but I think we can also be centers of wellbeing in our larger communities.
So, you know, I think that's something to think about and it's a very, very tall order, but I think if we start collaborating in that enterprise with other schools in the community, both public and private, we can start bringing back that discourse as the pastor said, bringing people together to interact and really start to understand those differences.
I also think, you know, and I wanna channel John Powell at, who heads Berkeley Center for Othering and Belonging right now. I think we need to embrace his philosophy of targeted universalism. And that is that schools need to adopt universal goals, those things that we hope to achieve for students and adults in the community alike. And then we need to understand where people are situated. And I love this about John's work, is he talks about difference being very situational. That we all, depending upon the goal that we're trying to reach, are situated quite differently. And so how do we create then targeted strategies to bring people who have different needs to those universal goals? So I think there's a lot of opportunity and a lot of promise in schools as we get to, back together, live, and start embracing communities of difference.
John Gulla: That's a lot for me to follow. Thank Donna. Several things, let me build on a number of things, Donna, that you mentioned. It has long interested me that some of the battles fought out in society come to a head in schools, and, and they do, I think, for some reasons that you allude to. Schools—meaning really Elementary, Secondary, College, Universities—are often the places where we come into the most intimate connection with those who are unlike us. And it's a result of that otherness, that lack of familiarity causes the disagreements that, that I regret in today's world seem to require on the behalf of all sides, success defined only as winning the argument and not in coming to a deeper understanding of how others might think.
One of the goals, it seems to me, of our schools, is to develop that familiarity with otherness. My advisor, Tim, in the intro mentioned that I'd gone to teachers college and I had the great good fortune to have had the legendary Maxine Green as my advisor. And she used, Maxine Green used to say that to be well educated in, in her words, was to see things as if they could be otherwise. And one of the failures, it seems to me right now, is too much yelling and screaming and efforts at winning the argument, than an appreciation of what others might have to say. And, and therein lies some of the challenge in achieving that civil discourse. As Donna was mentioning, and there's ample evidence of this, whether it's, you know, Robert Putnam's work or bowling alone, et cetera, but, where some of what had been available to American society, as places of gathering have shrunk, whether that's places of worship or other community engagements.
Schools are the one place where this still happens. So that is the place where we see everything from the, you know, the Scopes trial and in arguments about evolution to the current craziness because it's been so politicized, a topic of teaching about an, an honest teaching of our country's history.
So there, this establishment of community I think is a central goal for all schools at all levels. And one of the things that I've always enjoyed about the independent school world and really a privilege, a luxury that independent schools have, is they can be mission driven. That independent schools really can create their mission, which does not have to be a mission that will resonate with every citizen, with every prospective family and therein lies, I think, one of the great strengths. And it's a contrast. As a person who's chosen to spend his career at independent schools, I'm not in any way anti-public school. I want nothing but success for all children, but I enjoy the relative liberty that I think independent schools have not to try to be all things to all people. And that's part of the reason that I think this component of the educational ecosystem is as important and as necessary as it is.
Donna Orem: John, if I could just riff on that for a moment. I couldn't agree with you more, you know, I think that... but I would add one more component to it. You know, I think it's great that we're mission driven. And I think absolutely necessary to be very clear on what that is. But, you know, as we look to the next decade, I would suggest that in addition to being mission driven, we need to be purpose driven and see how those link together, because, you know, purpose takes us to that all important question of why are we doing this? And I think mission helps us then carry out that purpose. But I think when we start thinking about purpose, it takes us to looking at the all-important work of building culture and community, and, and you know, really how do we, you know, reach that very aspirational goal of purpose?
In fact, you know, in many ways, purpose is something that we may always be reaching for, because we set for ourselves these very lofty goals. But they also, I think, create that dream that really drives us as human beings. So I, as I said, I couldn't agree more and I hope this next decade finds us really talking about purpose, because certainly there's so many problems to address in our society. And I think independent schools are uniquely positioned to actually get into that and think very individually how they can alter the destiny of our society in positive ways.
John Gulla: I welcome the inclusion of, of purpose with enthusiasm to, to our discussion. I think it is absolutely fundamental. One of the things that drives me crazy, when I read commentary—often criticism—about modern day American education, is that far too often, the pieces rely on an economic analysis of how well prepared the students who graduate will be for the workplace.
And as the father, as Tim, you mentioned, my wife and I have two sons, and I'm glad they're not living in our basement. And that they're both gainfully employed. So I am not dismissive of, of the need for that, but of, of the literally thousands and thousands of, of teachers I've had conversations with on behalf of the, the foundation, I don't know anyone who went into the profession so that they could make a more effective widget for the global capitalist system. That's just not what I think motivates people at their core. The purpose, the idea of, other than, than it seems to me, other than one's immediate family, a school, especially a pre-K through 12th grade school, has the opportunity for being a larger influence over who that young person becomes than any other force out there. I certainly hope more powerful than popular culture. The opportunity for forging that purpose for giving that young person a sense of control that they can have over their destiny, to be themselves, not to be—and I say this with all due humility—of, you know, all parents have a certain degree of narcissism and wanting the, their children to choose a path that says to them, by replicating them, that we made the right choices. And that humility necessary on the part of parents that come to realize, as kids will often say, we're not the boss of them. That we have to, to allow that degree of autonomy to develop. That's the purpose, it seems to me, in creating passions and developing interests. What kind of person am I going to be there? I think the work that we do in one of my hopes in the future for all schools, but particularly independent schools, is that we'll pay even more attention, trying to figure out what is the long term benefit of an education? And I think it's, you know, woe to us, if, if that is measured in the real short term, in terms of just selective college admission. I know how driven schools are for that. But if that's the only measure, if it's not a longer degree of satisfaction with life, if it's not the degree of civic engagement, which can be shown, independent schools do a wonderful job of graduating students who remain civically engaged.
Therein lies the real value, it seems to me, and the purpose is to produce, in this even jeopardized Jefferson democracy, an engaged citizenry.
Donna Orem: Oh, John, you are so bright. And you know, if I could have a moment of humility myself, I, I also am a parent of a son. And I remember when he was in an independent school, and you know, one afternoon I was having a conversation with a teacher at the school. And I join you in applauding all of our teachers, and—because I think we as adults have so much to learn from them as well. And this was a moment of learning for me. I was upset with my son because he was not doing well in math. And, you know, as a parent at that time, I think I was a little too focused on grades and the college experience and, you know, I was having this casual conversation with one of his math teachers. And, and you know, I expected the conversation to go in a way of what I could do to really support him or to motivate him or to just get out of the way.
And he turned to me and said, you know, your son has a real passion. And his passion was around music. And he said, he's very lucky to have discovered that passion so early in life. And basically you ought to get out of his way as he pursues that passion. So I don't know that he would always say that I did, but I, that teacher certainly gave me a lot to think about, about how I could be a better parent in that moment.
Tim Fish: You know, Donna, I think I'm giving this attribution correctly to Mike Riara, who had a head of school, who I heard speak once. And he said that at some point along the way, as a parent, you're gonna get fired. And, and your job is you could either just walk away from the job and say, all right, good luck, you know, or you could try really hard to get hired back as a consultant. And you know, for me, I will say that I am, I've been fired and I am on my way hopefully to getting hired back as a consultant with my kids. And certainly that is, it's hard work to make that certainly transition.
You know, I love this notion of mission and purpose and thinking about that. And what I've been spending a lot of time on and what we've been spending a lot of time on in strategy lab is the, how do you get there?
What does that look like for a school, to both declare and ensure that there's, that there's a high degree of clarity around what that mission is, and what therefore it isn't? And what that purpose is and what it isn't? And you know, what we've been spending a lot of time on is thinking about how we help schools with strategy, how we help them sort of with innovation design and action. But at the heart of it, right, is Michael Porter's idea from Harvard business school. Michael Porter's idea is around this idea that, fundamentally, strategy is competing to be unique. That it's this idea of understanding where you're really trying to go, what is your niche? What is your way of going? He talks about this idea of a positive sum economy, as opposed to a zero sum economy.
And in a positive sum economy, you essentially have lots of different options. Lots of thriving choices for people to make, that are succeeding because they do what they do really well. As opposed to zero sum, where for me to win, it must, it means that you must lose. And I've been fascinated by this idea of how could our schools become, how could we create a positive sum economy in education, where there are all kinds of ideas, thriving, where people know, schools know, what they do really, really well.
And for me, that's kind of been at the center of strategy. And I'm curious for the two of you, what your sense is of where we are in terms of thinking about strategy, where we should be moving, particularly in this moment with thinking about strategy, and how schools and boards and teams and teachers and students can really be designing for the future they wanna see. To be unique and to be themselves. Jump in!
John Gulla: Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm happy to. I think my answer to how the schools may do that includes, among other things, a hope. A keen enthusiastic hope that one of the things that we'll see in the, the, the years to come is a broadening of definitions of success. I think that we've had for too long this industrial model of education with children progressing through schools in age cohorts, in quanta of, of classes, taught the same material from often the same text by a single teacher, without the, the differentiation that can come as schools reconceive the way in which they will go about this work. And part of what's necessary, if my dream for education were to come to fruition, would to be, you know, 10,000 different flowers blooming of different types of schools, that will ultimately make it a lot more difficult for parents to define in their terms, the right school for their child, because it will require them to really know who their children decide what is the right school for their child. That's a, it's an easier task if we, if schools tend to converge toward similarity. The schools that, and this craziness that we have, not just in education, but in American society, for listicles and rankings and what is the best.
And I think maybe you both have heard me say this, but I remember keenly the, when NAIS and under Peter Relic's leadership, the US News and World Report effort to try to do to independent schools what, what they successfully did with college and universities. And Peter's pushback was, to the reporter who came to see him and said, why are you resisting this? Why don't your consumers deserve to have the data? And Peter said to him, do you have children? And he said, yes, three. And then Peter said, who's the best? Which one of your children is the best? Is it, is it the one who will have the greatest amount of public success in the world? Or is it the one who makes you laugh when you're down? Is it the one that you have faith will actually come and care for you in your old age? And what is the best? And that's part of what I want to see in the future is broadening. I think we're seeing some of these changes as we move away from, you know, two national measures of assessing student promise in the SAT and ACT. That there is, I, this could be a rich examination within the world of education. As many number of highly selective college universities have had to make holistic determinations about who they'll admit without this default measure to go to.
So I guess my, I, the way I would begin to think about your really good question, Tim is just to see a variation on schools, that they will have to be courageous in putting a stake in the ground of trying to say, who are they? And then they're gonna have to create an identity around something that, that, that won't fade in, in a few years. So the, the, that's what takes the real courage on the part of institution to forge its identity around something that 10 years from now, 30 years from now, will be as attractive to a set of constituents.
The last thing that I guess that I would mention is part of my own education about certain elements of a school that I just hadn't appreciated before. I had the great good fortune to have visited so many. So the four schools that you named at the beginning that had employed me, I thought were radically different. And I thought that each of those schools were so easily set apart from each other. That now, however, I see, they're all part of a tiny spectrum in NAIS schools, that they were co-educational, pre-K through 12th grade, selective, financially stable co-educational non-sectarian schools, et cetera.
And there are so many types of schools that I've come to realize something I've pooh-poohed before, but the importance of culture in a school. By that I would mean how all, it, you have a strong culture in a school if most, all of the members of the different constituencies are in harmony about what that school is all about and what its values are, what its mores are.
Example. I mean, one of the things that I just love to see when I go to visit a school is if I'm hanging out in the hallway, and this is why the pandemic was difficult, because I love the school visits among the most important parts and enjoyable parts of my job, but doing virtual visits taught me something, but not nearly as much as being on campus.
So when I'm on campus, if I have a chance just to hang out in the hallway at assembly and observe students sort of from a distance who aren't necessarily aware that they're being observed, you'll see in schools students enforce their own codes of conduct. High school kids will say to somebody else, you know, don't do that. That's not cool. Or we don't do that here, or that's not funny, as a way of taking responsibility at the student level, relieving adults. So they are themselves helping to perpetuate the culture of the school. And that's a sign to me of an incredibly healthy school, so. Schools that, and they don't need to be monolithic, who can develop their own cultures, I think, will be the way in which they often will differentiate themselves.
Donna Orem: That was beautifully said, John and I love the the view of flowers and, and thinking about this world where, you know, no matter what happens to you in terms of your circumstance—because we know at birth, you know, we pretty much are at the same starting place, but our circumstances in life take us on different paths—that that won't no longer be true. I mean, obviously that's the ideal for any society. But I think, you know, to reflect on Tim's question about strategy, I, you know, I take it certainly back to purpose, but I, but I also think about someone who I, I think got it right a very long time ago. And that's Henry Mintzberg, who was then a professor at McGill, who wrote a groundbreaking piece about why strategic planning does not really serve us that well, because often it has us looking back as opposed to forward. And he made the comment that when you think about strategy, it should be a not too well articulated vision of the future, because obviously we don't know what's gonna happen, as these last two years have shown us.
But you know, if we are clear, I think on that purpose, which is really to serve students well, and as you said, John, to help them find that purpose and to help them create pathways to that, you know, we will then be changing the nature of our society. So there's, I think, just such a huge opportunity there. You know, a tall order. But I think, you know, when you are clear about what you do, it makes it also easier to then start to look at what are both the headwinds and the tailwinds for you. That is, what are the obstacles in the path of you achieving that? And what are those tailwinds that can help you out? But having that clarity first about purpose, I think, is going to be absolutely essential for schools, but as Mintzberg warned us, you know, let's not have it too well planned out, so that we can continue to flex and navigate as our schools have, have done so well through the pandemic.
The other thing that I would love to say about the future, you know, this has been a really hard two years and, you know, there's been a lot of grief and loss and I would never wanna downplay that.
But within the school community, I think a silver lining has been collaboration. We can't do this alone. And schools collaborated better than I have ever observed in my close to 25 years at NAIS and even longer working with the community. So I also hope that we use that spirit of collaboration as part of our strategy moving forward.
Tim Fish: Yeah. Thank you, Donna. And, and you know, that whole notion of that future focus, that moving forward, is a big part of what we do in this podcast or on this podcast. And it's how I wanna ask you each to sort of end our time together today, is to think about, you know, something I've been thinking about, and we've been asking all of our guests this season. It's around this idea of what are your hopes for the future of our schools? You know, if we were to come back in five or 10 years, what would you hope to see in independent schools, thriving and moving forward, and what kinds of things can schools begin thinking about as they're setting their own strategy, their own view of where their future's headed?
Donna Orem: I think, you know, one for me is something you mentioned earlier, Tim is I think, you know, the pandemic has put a spotlight on mental health. And I think that mental health is a continuum like physical health. And, you know, I think for all students and children, and I'll go back to John Powell, it's situational. But I think, you know, we are now a lot clearer as a society about the many challenges that kids face. And when you look at mental health, it starts in childhood. One out of every six children has some sort of issue with mental health. And we know that the pandemic has exacerbated that and probably put many more children along that continuum.
So, you know, I think as we also know through brain research, the connections between mental health and physical health and academic outcomes, you know, that we create schools where mental and physical health are really at the center of what we do, that we understand where children and adults are situated, and we understand very specifically what each one of them needs to be whole, mentally, to be whole, physically. Because I think once we are able to do that, you know, we are taking those rocks out of the way for students and adults to achieve anything. But we have the means now to do that, I think we have more of the understanding to do that.
No easy task to put this all together. I don't minimize that, but I do think it is the challenge for schools to face. And I believe our schools can, can do this. You know, I, I recently wrote my blog for next month and I was thinking back on what we really have to do and, and how we move, how we need to move forward and, and quoting someone else, "We need to accept the past for what it is for all of its glory, but we need to fight for the future."
So I think that that's how I'm gonna close, because I think independent schools have a glorious future to fight for, and I think they can make a difference in our society. So I think we have to accept and put behind us where we've been, and to really concentrate on fighting for a future that will really ensure that we have that field of flowers that John spoke about.
Tim Fish: The field of flowers. Well, I love the, I love the, also Donna, your statement, where every child as whole. And I just think that's a wow. What a, what a great t-shirt. John, what are your thoughts?
John Gulla: Well first, just going back to something Donna had said in the earlier portion that I just want to echo. I do think one of the silver linings of the pandemic has been the degree of collaboration among school leaders and those in different schools who, as a result of their, to share wisdom and pathways forward, came to collaborate. And that's one of my dreams for the independent school world is that, that we share the same dreams for the children. And there isn't a competition, a sort of head to head competition that there might be between, let's say Uber and Lyft, where people are trying to put each other out of business. But instead trying to share secrets, 'cause that's part of the beauty of a not for profit is the, this shared sense of both purpose and mission. I guess, Tim, I'll answer the part of your question that said, what might I hope for if I had the opportunity just to think 20 years from now and, and come back and visit and what may have changed.
I'll build on a couple of things that, that Donna said. I hope we continue to mine the world of neuroscience, which is one of the more significant things that's happened over the course of my lifetime. We know an awful lot more about how the human brain works and how we learn. And that has begun to make its way into the world of education, but there's a lot more that I think could be done in benefiting from that improved understanding. I would like to see a world of education, going back again to something Donna had mentioned, that enjoys a much higher degree of public trust than it does at present. It is true that the schools actually have a higher degree of public trust than a lot of other societal organizations. But there is this phenomena that most of us who, who are in this world understand is, is that there can be a condemnation of education broadly, but my child school is always above average. This is the Lake Woebegon phenomena. But I think generally speaking, I would like to, to…the battles that are, pitched battles that are being fought right now are to the detriment of all.
I hinted at some of the other things that matter to me, I would like to see schools really much more profoundly differentiated. I'm quite interested in trying to follow what's happening in Finland as they move to a phenomenon based curriculum. I think that there are opportunities for schools that are interested to do the same thing with an epistemological approach. I mean, why don't we organize our curriculum along the lines of how do we know what we know from the earliest age? And it would work.
On much more practical levels in this world that we share of independent schools, I'm hoping that what's been a steadily declining term of leadership for school heads reverses. I don't think independent schools are well served when the heads of school begin to approach urban superintendency in terms of length of tenure. This is just not a healthy trend. I'd love to see us continue to wrestle with fundamental questions that have begun over the course of the last half century to, to be better understood. Questions about what is intelligence? And we have this word that reifies a concept, but we don't really have a good operationalized definition and we need to continue to keep broad ways of understanding that.
Equally so this notion of meritocracy. I mean, we have so much of our society built on this idea that the admission to particularly selective schools or college universities somehow is a reflection of the individual merit. But Donna mentioned it earlier. There's, there's a lot of privilege that comes with that, as Warren Buffet has it, ovarian lottery that you win or don't win. In terms of maybe that there are certain fundamental aspects that are uniform, but there's an awful lot that continues to perpetuate the, the, the good fortune of some and the disadvantage of others. And that's, I hope to see progress made on that front.
Tim Fish: Thank you so much, John. Thank you, Donna. You know, when we started off this conversation, I said to myself, this is not gonna be a hard 45 minutes or hour to fill, with the three of us getting together to think together. I wanna thank you both so much for bringing your thoughts, your deep experience, and most importantly, your love for our schools to New View EDU. It's been a wonderful conversation. And you never know. We'll get back together in about 20 years, John, and we'll see how many of those things have come true.
John Gulla: I will look forward to that.
Tim Fish: I look forward to it as well. All the best. Thank you both so much for your time.
Donna Orem: Thanks, John. Thanks Tim.
John Gulla: Yeah.
Donna Orem: A pleasure.