Read the full transcript of Episode 94 of the NAIS New View EDU podcast, in which host Andi Gabrick, editor of NAIS’s Independent School magazine, sits down with Brent Kaneft, head of school at Wilson Hall in South Carolina, to get his thoughts on how AI is impacting schools, and how Brent approaches his headship in an era of rapidly evolving technologies.
Andi Gabrick: Today I'm talking with Brent Kaneft, head of school at Wilson Hall in South Carolina. And in July of 2027, he will become the head of school at Holland Hall in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
His leadership and writing centers on proposing bold ideas that awaken others to new possibilities, particularly in education, leadership, and the future of independent schools.
Welcome, Brent. It's so great to have you here. Thank you so much for being here.
One of the things that we're doing this season of as part of New View EDU is to bring in member voices, and to sort of talk to and speak to the larger themes that we're talking about in the podcast, and also to bring a little bit of the on-the-ground school perspective to the topic at hand.
As you know, independent schools, our community, is made up of a variety of different types of schools of all sizes and missions and types. And so I wonder if you could start by telling us a little bit about your school in particular, your community and what you do there as head of school.
Brent Kaneft: Yeah, no, thank you. It's a great school. This is actually my alma mater. So I graduated from here in 2000 and replaced my headmaster who'd been here for 38 years. So this is year five here, and it's a pre-K through 12 school, day school. It's about 860 kids.
We are a uniformed school, pretty traditional, I'd say in most areas. I mean the big thing for us is academic rigor, wanting to stretch the kids. We say academically, athletically, artistically, and spiritually. And then our sort of community relationships, like many independent schools, just thrive on that groundedness and the people who work here.
Andi Gabrick: One of the things that I know that you've written about, you know, as relates to what as we've worked together, but also your personal writings is something that you call the metacrisis. I think it sits at the intersection of one of the themes we've been exploring in New View this season, which is, you know, around technology, this ed tech push-pull, you know, AI in particular. And so that's why we're having you here. I want to get your take, but I wonder if you could tell a little bit about, you know, your thinking there.
Brent Kaneft: Absolutely. No, thank you. It's a, the term is you know, metacrisis, it could be polycrisis, some people call it meta-consequences. It's simply the idea that we're seeing erosion, degradation, decadence in politics, the environment, religion, economics, all of these things happening at one time, and largely for very similar reasons. Things like the belief that we can have infinite growth on a finite planet, you know, pulls a lot of things together interconnectedly and causes problems in many facets.
And what I am finding in independent schools is one of maybe the biggest challenges we have right now, is that we're in this cycle where we should be rebirthing, we should be recreating and reimagining what our purpose is, what our structure looks like, what we're doing in the classroom, what learning entails.
But we're, actually we've been caught in this trap. And that trap is that all growth is good, that abundance means success, that progress is very narrowly defined as, you know, immediate and short term versus looking at long-term second and third order effects of our decisions. And so what that's done is created in many ways, for many schools, a lot of things happening at the school, a lot of programs, a lot of courses, a lot of different activities, and nobody really remembers or is beginning, I guess at least to forget, why are we doing this in the first place? What is our mission? And just a lack of coherence.
And so when I go and present in schools that are often, you know, pre-K through 12, one of the biggest things I hear is it feels like we're three schools on one campus. You know, when I ask people, do you know the names of everybody you work with? In an independent school, that ought to always be yes, right? Almost, right, when you think about our close-knit tight groups. but more and more I'm seeing that that is elusive to some degree. So part of this is technology, and I know we're going to get into this, but that's kind of where the foundation is for the Substack series that I'm writing on the metacrisis.
Andi Gabrick: Yeah, super, super fascinating. And like you said, we are, I do want to dig in a little on the technology piece in particular. I think, you know, it's not surprising. It's all over the news, you know, headlines, especially at back to school, you know, this, you know, pushback, if you will, I guess, around ed tech in particular. And of course, we cannot have, go a day or have a conversation without talking about AI. You know, it's gone from rapidly evolving to sort of moving at the speed of light and how do we keep up?
And I just wonder if you could, you know, talk a little bit about, you know, how that is from your perspective as a head of school, like how are you taking that in and like how is that impacting your campus and your school, and you know how what are you doing to kind of, I don't know, keep up and at the same time, you know, embrace in a way that feels right for your school and education?
Brent Kaneft: No, thank you. I think there's several answers to this question, and one thing I get concerned about is that this idea of keeping up with everything, I think that's actually one of the traps that many people are in. And I think that that makes you a, potentially a reactionary, as opposed to somebody who's more wisely navigating this territory.
So I try not to keep up, but I try to look at what are the fundamental things that are happening. And one of the things we know with technology is there's always this promise that it's going to improve your life in some way. It's going to save maybe education in some way or save your school in some way. It's going to, you know, preclude boredom in your classroom, you know, it's going to be engaging. So there's always this, if you integrate this, it'll be better in some way, some promise. And I think that that is what ultimately has to be always explored.
So one thing we talk about a lot is efficiency. And technology promises to be more efficient. But one thing we know, when you think about systems level thinking is that there's something called Jevon's paradox. And Jevon was this 19th-century economist who discovered that when things become more efficient, we actually use more energy. And so for example, you know, if a gallon of gas only makes you, it gets you ten miles, you know, if we create a car where a gallon of gas gets you a hundred miles, you would think you might save on gas. But what happens actually is you drive farther and you drive faster, and this has been proven over and over again.
And so when you think about integrating things like artificial intelligence to help teachers save time. Okay, that's a great idea. And it could save time. If it makes them more efficient though, what are we doing with that extra time? If your school is still all about abundance and adding and adding, and I fall into this trap as a head of school, and like, well, if that teacher has two hours’ extra time, how am I going to fill that time? And so what you're looking at potentially is a large amount of burnout that could possibly come with integrating something like AI at your school in ways that feel meaningful in the short term, but potentially long term have consequences that you're not anticipating.
So you know, I think when we look at it at that fundamental level, like what is this trying to, what does the technology…how is it going to change our behavior, right? How is it going to change the way we human, the way we interact, right, the way we communicate? I was listening, I remember when ChatGPT came out, you know, three years ago or something like that. I was listening to a podcast and there's this really high-powered CEO. And he said, you know, I can't wait for the day on a Friday when I have 300 emails and I can press a button and this, you know, tool is going to answer all my emails. It's going to have my tone of voice, my, you know, what I would say. And then I'm going to get a high level one pager that tells me all about it. And that's going to free me up to go and play with my son that afternoon.
And I remember listening to that and thinking, that's a great idea, that's a great thing. What, wow. I mean, wouldn't that be amazing? But then I thought, well, why aren't you playing with your son now? And why, you know, if your values are not there already, how are you going to get there? My guess is most schools are going to, you know, if they can optimize, if optimization is already their value, they're not going to use that extra time for things that we would love to do, you know, like be slower in the classroom, take a walk with a student outside and just talk to them, maybe have a teacher reading a book, for goodness sake, you know, and just you know, enjoying themselves on campus. They're not going to do that. They're going to say, What else can you do? What other program can we add? Because we've got to be competitive with Joe Blow across the street. And so I think there's some real dangers there in terms of efficiency and then what fills in the bubble.
Andi Gabrick: Yeah. I started smiling when you first were describing this efficiency, in part because I've been thinking a lot, or actually observing a lot in my own time and work as I have played around with AI a little bit in the different places I have, you know, I found myself saying, I don't know that it's actually saved me more time or I've, it's helped me be efficient in this way. Like I have to learn, like, how is it going to actually make me efficient? Because a lot of time I, you know, I spend a lot of time kind of going back and so I think that that, you know, that there's a real, there's real stuff to dig in around there. Like it's saving us time potentially, but what is that time and how do we fill it? I think that's a really great point.
Brent Kaneft: I mean, you think about, you know, when email came out, you thought it was going to make you more efficient and save time. It's been the complete opposite.
Andi Gabrick:I spent my whole time on, my whole life on email.
Brent Kaneft: Right. What is the value that is embedded in the technology already? I mean, a lot of people talk about, well, well, technology is really values-free.
And I don't believe that, right? I think values are embedded in the tool itself, and it changes our values, it changes what we do, our behaviors and all those things. So you look at email, what was, you know, an efficiency tool turned into, hey, you should be on all the time. You owe me a response in 24 hours. You know, fewer parents were coming up to the school to talk to the teachers face to face. And so now we're emailing parents and things are getting lost in translation and straining relationships.
And so all of those second, third, fourth order effects that we just didn't think of because the immediate short-term reward was so good. But that's very biological, it's very human, it's very evolutionary. My work is looking at how do we bind ourselves against things like that? Like what are the rules and laws around this that we're going to regulate to help us not get caught in this trap, so to speak?
Andi Gabrick: One of the things, you know, you talked a little bit about efficiency and sort of the time saving part of technology, but especially as it relates to teachers. But on the other side of sort of thinking about teachers and the work related to tech and AI and you know, in particular, but in the classroom, like how is, how is that playing out in your school?
Brent Kaneft: Yeah, I think that what we talk about a lot is—and this comes from the work of Mary Helen Immordino-Yang at the Center for Affective Neuroscience Development Learning and Education. What a name, CANDLE. But really what we're focused on is child development, child and adolescent development, right? And so we're not thinking about technology in the sense of this is necessarily going to get them a job, this is necessarily going to be the skill that they need for five years from now.
We believe that any prediction of the future at this point is really irresponsible. And is actually, you know, anybody who's saying we're certain this is going to happen or certain the future is going to look like this, I think, is not performing, I guess, their job wisely. We want clarity, right? And what we're looking at is okay, if we're going to integrate technology, how is that going to help the development of the child? Again, going back to our mantra, you know, development academically, spiritually, artistically, and all those things, athletically.
So, you know, I'm going to steal this phrase from this guy named Dennis Manning, many people will know him in the audience. He was head of school at Norfolk Academy, and I had the good pleasure of being around him for a couple conversations. But he said, you know, here we are judicious with the new. And I think that that is, as adults, we have to be very judicious. And so when we talk about this as teachers, we talk about intentionality. You know, what are we trying to accomplish? And is this going to lead to deeper, you know, more resilient learning in the classroom, on the field, wherever we are?
We were always sort of a low tech school. We're reducing that even more. In lower school, they don't get any AI you know, really engagement in our lower school. And we begin to sort of integrate that in in wise ways, six through 12. And really only juniors and seniors here are getting the full green light, you know, to go into an AI tool to to just do research and really have that integrated into their, mainly, you know, kind of research-based classes.
Andi Gabrick: Yeah. So it seems like it's a very mission aligned approach to technology. One of the things that I think about a lot, I say a lot is as in you know, and all the work that our schools are doing and sort of observing the independent school sector as a whole, is that it is fundamentally a human enterprise, right? And so like, you know, yes, we need to bring in technology and and you know, teach our kids and equip our kids to, it's their reality, but it's ultimately about the human experience, and it sounds like that that's what you are delivering on at school, and so I'm happy to hear that.
Brent Kaneft: Well, yeah, and I think, I appreciate that. I you know, I think I think we are and I think that's good. I think that there's a you know, I don't like duality or dichotomies, I guess I should say, 'cause they're they're often simplified and so this is probably going to fall into that camp, but I think ed tech often looks at educational environments as complicated, as pieces that you can pull apart. And you know, if I implement here, I'll have this outcome, sort of like the industrial conveyor belt sort of mentality. But we know that educational environments are highly complex, that with a lot of interconnected parts, that when you change something, you know, you're actually not sure what's going to emerge.
And so I think that, you know, we've gotten into this mindset of, integrate ed tech, you should get this outcome. But we know humans are more complicated or more complex than that, as are our ecosystems. And so I think that that's just a little bit of a shortcoming of the mindset of like plug and play, you know, that that I think a lot of schools are doing with that technology.
Andi Gabrick: Well, it sounds like you have a great school community. Is there a word that you use consistently when you talk about your school and your community or that you would, how you would describe it to someone who doesn't know?
Brent Kaneft: Yeah, and you know, the word excellent is something we use a lot, you know, just trying to be excellent in all things, and our community does that in spades. They just, I'm surrounded by wonderful people. As you know, like, you get the head of school and and they get the blame and the praise and a lot of things and and I'm sitting here going, Well, actually, this person did all the work. You know, I was here and I'm just lucky that this person works at this school because they're so amazing and look at the work that they've done. And so I've just been blessed to be around, you know, these amazing, creative, fun, relational adults who care about kids and want to see them thrive.
Andi Gabrick: Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing.
It's been a great conversation. One of the things before I let you go, though, that we're trying in this season, is to have a little bit of a sort of fun lightning round, if you will. So people can get a little sense of you. Ready?
Brent Kaneft: Okay, I'm ready. Yeah, I think so.
Andi Gabrick: Okay. All right. If you had one more hour left in your day, what would you do?
Brent Kaneft: Sleep.
Andi Gabrick: What's the last book you read?
Brent Kaneft: I just finished this great book called The Psychopathic Selection Hypothesis. And it's by a guy named Greg Elliott and the the basic premise is, you know, we used to live in these small tribal bands, under 40, know, Dunbar’s number, whatever it is, and you know, there are always been the dark triad traits in people, but when you stole from your neighbor, you know, there were ways in small communities to push back against that. You know, you got a bad reputation or you got excommunicated out of the community. But now, through our sort of modernization, we've got these institutions that really divorce us from our consequences. And so behaving badly actually gets incentivized in some of our institutions. And you know, we actually end up behaving in some psychopathic ways, not that we're psychopathic, but making decisions that seem really at odds with human flourishing. and because we're so distant from the consequences that that would be would be a result of our behaviors and actions and decisions.
Andi Gabrick: So fascinating. So I'm going to say in the loved it or hated it category, you loved it.
Brent Kaneft: Loved it. Yeah, it was great. Yeah.
Andi Gabrick: What part of your job actually feels like play and not work?
Brent Kaneft: You know, I love, I was thinking about this. I love seeing kids perform and cheering for them and and you know, getting kind of upset when a call doesn't go their way. And I just, I feel like a kid again. I feel like this, just a fan.
Andi Gabrick: What's the first thing you do when you get to campus every day?
Brent Kaneft: First thing I do is my girls and I walk in the main entrance and there's a seal in the main entrance and we have a game every single time where I tell them they can't walk on the seal and they just want to touch it with their toe just to mess with dad, you know. So that's kind of the first little entrance into our day, especially my kindergartner.
Andi Gabrick: What's the last thing you do before you leave?
Brent Kaneft: Last thing is well it's kind of when I leave, I you know, I lock everything up, I go out of my car and if I'm if I'm just by myself and not picking, you know, a child up, I put on my Spotify and I crank something up pretty loud as I'm leaving. Yeah.
Andi Gabrick: Did you do that yesterday?
Brent Kaneft: Yes. and and what was I listening to? I think it was, I've been on a couple of U2 songs for whatever reason. I can't remember what it was. Bad, maybe it's the U2 song? Yeah, it's good.
It's sort of, you know, they can get kind of transcendental and I think that's kind of what I need to like, get a little bit out of my head at the end of the day.
Andi Gabrick: And last but not least, what gives you hope?
Brent Kaneft: Yeah, this is one of those funny ones, and I'll answer it this way. I don't have any hope to continue the way that we've done school. What I hope for and where I find hope is the many people who are finding what I might call and have heard called a throughtopia. Like we are in transition.
And so I'm hopeful that the many independent school leaders and other educational leaders you know who are really thinking through, what does human development look like in our space, in our locale, in our environment, I've been really hopeful for. But I think it's like Stockdale's paradox, you know, you gotta hold hope and the reality of what we're in and what we're facing at the same time, and not get too pollyanna about it. And you know, I try to keep that balance I should say, as we move forward.
Andi Gabrick: Well, this has been a truly fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for being with us today. It's been great having you. And I look forward to hearing from you and working with you again in the future.
Brent Kaneft: Well, thank you, Andi, for everything. I really appreciate it.