Read the full transcript of Episode 95 of the NAIS New View EDU podcast, in which NAIS president and host Debra P. Wilson explores the difference between deliberation and debate—and how teaching students to practice deliberation will help them form valuable civic and life skills—with Mia Charity, president of the Close Up Foundation.
Debra Wilson: The skills and traits our students will need in the future are something we think and write about quite a bit here at NAIS, and they are a focus of this season of New View EDU. We know that our students' ability to engage in critical thinking and engagement with curiosity around important topics of the day as they continue to shift and evolve will be crucial to them as they navigate their paths ahead.
At NAIS, we've been partnering with the Close Up Foundation to provide more opportunities for our schools to engage students in this work.And there are very few people better situated to speak with us about this work than Mia Charity, the president of the Close Up Foundation. Close Up is a nonpartisan, nonprofit civic education organization based in Arlington, Virginia. Mia Charity assumed the role of president in March 2023 after serving in various leadership positions, including chief development officer and chief external affairs officer over more than a decade.
Mia, I'm so glad that you are with us today. Welcome to New View EDU.
Mia Charity: Thank you for having me, Debra.
Debra Wilson: It's so exciting. I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. As we get going, would you just share a little bit first about what Close Up does? Give us a little bit of its history just for those listeners who don't know a whole lot about it?
Mia Charity: Absolutely. The Close Up Foundation is a nonpartisan civic education organization. We've been around for more than 50 years. People who are familiar with Close Up probably might know us best from programs that we do in Washington, DC with young people. But we've also done a lot of work with educators and professional development and helping them create the right resources and opportunities through our curriculum development work and professional development with educators.
So we really, our mission is to help young people develop into active and engaged citizens. And so we do that mostly through our work with high school and middle school students.
Debra Wilson: I love that. And I think I've maybe told you before that my sister actually did a Close Up program when she was in high school. And like she still loves it. It was definitely a, like a growth experience for her, and just opened her eyes to a totally new, you know, set of experiences.
Mia Charity: Absolutely. I have to say that finding and hearing Close Up alumni stories is my favorite sport. If I go anywhere and someone is, says that they have a connection, their parent, they went on a Close Up program, there's basically nothing that's going to stop me from finding out more information about where did you come from, who were your roommates, what did you talk about…And you know, it's always surprising, but not surprising that Close Up is — these experiences of bringing young people together from different backgrounds and communities and thinking about solutions really does leave an an impact on people. And it's one that, you know, you see that, we teachers and education and how you're thinking about those issues, we see that in elected officials, and everyday citizens everywhere. But you know, I think having these opportunities really does leave an impact in a way that is notable and memorable for folks that have had Close Up experiences.
Debra Wilson: Well, and you've spent most of your professional career at Close Up, and have become president after serving, you know, several leadership roles. What have you learned, you know, particularly right now, about young people today that you feel like would surprise a lot of adults?
Mia Charity: I think the thing that would surprise most adults is that we project some of the polarization of adults onto students. And I think when, despite young people consuming the same news and, you know, having the same echo chamber that social media maybe has on them, I think when we create the right conditions for young people, they are curious about why other people think differently than themselves, without trying to immediately prove them wrong.
And so I just think that these opportunities help young people really break through some of the things that adults wish they had opportunities to talk about in meaningful ways. Instead, most of us only consume issues that are connected to politics through our news. And it doesn't actually matter what news station you're looking at, you can tell that there is a problem and a breakdown in how we communicate with each other and how we work together to solve big issues, and you don't see the apprehension in young people in the way that you do with adults.
Debra Wilson: Is that kind of what drew you to some of this work around civic education?
Mia Charity: I would say, you know, I actually came into my work at Close Up, which has been for more than twenty years, from a business and marketing background. And so it's not like I mapped out a career in civic education, that that was the goal. And I think it was, early in my career the most interesting thing was, I worked in our outreach team and so that meant I got to go into communities, into schools, where we were introducing Close Up programs to educators. So I got to see what Pocatala, Idaho looks like, what Houston looks like, different than Missoula, Montana, and Fresno, California.
So going to see people in their communities was one piece of this dynamic of what we see embodied in the programs, of people bringing all of those things into their conversations. And so that curiosity about what people are bringing into those conversations, I think, has been a thing that sort of has existed the whole time of my career.
I know we don't often bump into a lot of people who have been at organizations for more than 20 years, but it it doesn't feel that way all the time, because there's always been some new opportunity to reshape what we're doing, but also keep the essence of what makes Close Up so special in bringing together people to help them think about their own point of view and other points of view that they may not agree with. So all of those things have kept me sort of connected here at Close Up and thinking about why the work of civic education is so important.
Debra Wilson: I love that. And you and I share that. You know, we both have, you know, been with our respective organizations, and I left for a little bit and came back. But, you know, and it's fascinating how much some of this work has changed over the last, you know, twenty plus years.
How are you thinking about, you know, those different opportunities? Like when you think about how you're building moments for people to engage, you know, in complex conversations about complex issues. You know, whenever, I love it when somebody who doesn't spend a bunch of time in education, they tell me, oh, education's really simple. I'm like, I don't know, I know smart people who have been working on these things for a long time.
So when you think about, you know, the experiences you're creating through Close Up, like what are some of the common threads that you're creating, you know, to really help, you know, build these skills that you're trying to build with students today?
Mia Charity: I think some of the common threads are that, you know, we all have different ways that these issues that seem so big, healthcare, immigration, you know, those sound like really big issues. But when you start breaking them down and helping people understand how government and public policy really impact and touch their lives, I think once you can make that connection, people understand why they should care.
And so helping them understand why they should care is because your mom needs health care, your grandma needs health care, you had this experience with housing in your community. Like you think of these things as public policy, but you know, they're real health, housing, real day-to-day life issues that are wrapped up into policy and community and all the things that are around you, but that's not it, right?
The other piece is that, outside of your community, is that there are other communities, right? And we have to coexist together. And so the Washington DC programs set the framework that we've built our curriculum around for all the other things that we do. So we are very deliberate about helping create a sense of community and common ground for young people to have conversations. I think they, young people are definitely, can have conversations about really sticky things. But that's not where we need to start, right?
Like we can practice all of the skills that we want by just, let's take it a step at a time. Let's start with the cell phone policy at our school and learn how we're going to talk and listen to each other to navigate a challenge that we need to overcome. And then let's practice and apply what that looks like to bigger and different issues. And I think at the end of the day, one of the things that
I'm really excited about, and how we're thinking about framing it — and you mentioned this — is what are those skills?
I think as we think about how AI will change the world, one, we never had, in civic education, the perfect fit for helping students demonstrate that they have developed the right skills of critical thinking. Being able to make compelling arguments with peers to think and talk across difference. Like those are things that don't just happen in one single class. And so how do we take these things that we know that they're successful and how do we build them and create a real environment in schools that reinforces it beyond a social studies class, beyond a Close Up program? It's a culmination of all these other things plus the Close Up, plus the model UN activities that really help shape how we should be intellectually curious about the issues that impact our lives.
Debra Wilson: What do kids kind of take to easily, and then like where do they get stuck? And I know you do some of this work with educators too, like teaching educators how to bring your deliberation framework and stuff back to school. So you know, what I love is like you're helping people slow down, it sounds like. You know? Last night we had grandparent dinner at our house, right? Like, you can't just jump in on the topic because then everybody kind of chooses their camps, but I feel like you're, you know, you're slowing it down. And you're helping kids start with something like cell phone policies, which as somebody who lives with a 16-year-old, they feel very strongly about cell phone policies. You know what I mean? But like, you're helping them like transfer those learning, transfer those skills to bigger things.
Because you know, we live in pretty complex times. We see people choose their camps and not engage in helpful dialogue around any number of issues. And like what I'm hearing you say is that when you're working with kids or you're working with educators, you're kind of teaching them to get past those obstacles, right? Like, like, how do we engage like, thoughtfully, with curiosity, and respectfully in dialogue about everything from cell phone policies to healthcare, right? And so I assume that there are probably some things that like this generation of kids takes to pretty easily, but then like what are the harder parts for them?
Mia Charity: I think the part that they take easily to is coming into the conversation being curious. I think one of the transitions that we've made on programs and and really leaned into as we push out programming and opportunities through the deliberation programs that we do in local communities and schools is that, you know, making it digestible for young people. They want to come into the conversation, and that move to deliberation for us was a change, in terms of I think we framed ourselves around debate a lot where there was a need to win or lose a conversation. And I think—
Debra Wilson: —Right, right, and to argue.
Mia Charity: And to argue. And I think the framework of deliberation has helped with listening and receiving information in a way that, like, OK, well, I'm not just trying to win an argument against you. I'm listening, and maybe what you're saying adds to how I think about an issue. And so I'm, there's a willingness from that framework to listen better, to take in pieces that maybe you hadn't thought of before.
And so because it's, you know, we're talking about high school and middle school students. They, that they're used to coming into conversations that way versus adults who, even if I said explain deliberation versus debate, still maybe come into those conversations wanting to prove that whatever they're saying is correct. And so that openness to gaining new information from someone else and learning through what they know to enhance what you know is easy for students. I think the challenge is, like all of the issues, like when you do get to sticky conversations, it's not because they're, quote, a controversial issue. It's because maybe that there's a personal connection to the issue.
And so I think that's always the piece, if it's housing, if it's benefits for students, if it's AI, you know, there are a thousand different ways that all of these things that feel like big abstract issues have personal effects on people. And so I think that's the biggest challenge, and it's not because young people don't want to have empathy for their peers, it's that they just may not be aware. And so I think just coming into the conversation is that understanding that there's a personal piece to all of these conversations. It's not about, you know, applying some theory, et cetera. Like that, no, I could have a real personal issue affected by some of these big things. And so I think it's just navigating the personal with the learning that is the biggest challenge.
Debra Wilson: I love that. And I love the sort of recasting because I mean, and there is time and space for debate, right? I mean, there's, it's a very real skill set. But I think about myself as a high schooler, or even my own kids when they've been in high school. There's something appealing about deliberation and just the notion of being deliberate, right? You could not have gotten me, I mean, it's again, my older sister went to a Close Up program. I did not go to a Close Up program.
I had zero interest in being part of a debate. I mean, I heck, I'm even a lawyer. I even spent some time litigating.
Mia Charity: No, thank you.
Debra Wilson: Yeah, right. I don't mind it as much now as an adult, but you know, particularly as a kid, and asking people to be deliberate, right? Slow down your thinking, take in the information, be deliberate in your choices, be deliberate in your words.
Do you feel like that's changed a little bit of like the profile of the students that have signed up for Close Up?
Mia Charity: I think there are some programs that we have where, you know, students are able to self-select into these programs. And I think there are programs where we're in a school and it's a much wider cast in terms of who's going to be involved in the program. And so I think the conversations are rich with both groups of students, the ones that are, you know, ready to go, you know, file for being a poli sci major in college and run for office, to the ones that were like, think they don't care until they're in the conversation. And turns out they do care very much about the issues. And so I think there's something there for everyone in these conversations.
Debra Wilson: So let's talk about like, when you go into a school. Like when you leave, like what do you hope effective civil discourse actually looks like in the schools? Like what kind of change do you hope for?
Mia Charity: I hope it looks like…that there are opportunities in their school that are school-wide. That create opportunities for young people to not only practice deliberative skills, but you know, actually be able to engage on issues impacting their school life. And I think we do a lot of practice with young people, and I think, you know, you don't, you have to be 18 to vote — or younger in some states — but how do we change that from practice to giving students real agency in deciding things at their school?
And it doesn't have to be, you know, what next year's budget for this school looks like, but what are real ways that they can apply, you know, what they're learning through activities like deliberation that impact the school in a way that reflects student voice. I think it is, you know, certainly classroom instruction and practice, because I think the practice and the ability to build up to more complex issues is based off of there being a rapport with students and practice and what happens when we don't agree strongly. What does that really look like?
And so I think that's, if it is a practice over time, you'll get to, OK, we don't agree here. The nasty doesn't have to be nasty and you know, I have, hold some other judgment about your character because of a conversation. No, like, we can walk away and I think you think differently from me and that's great. So there's that piece of it, but there's also, you know, what do you really need to be a good citizen, and I guarantee they're doing that in all of their classes. Like the critical thinking, the understanding bias through media and AI, all of those are things that aren't in, like I said before, they aren't in a single class.
Yes, do we want to have them, you know, sort of be built in social studies, in classes like that, of course, but critical thinking is in your science class, that's in your math class, that's in all of your classes. And so how do we start defining those skills a little bit differently to help young people recognize like, no, that's something you're going to do as a good citizen. That's, it applies to your next job. It applies to whether you're going to college or not, and it applies as a life skill that you're learning how to get new information, analyze it and engage with people who might think differently from you. Because I don't know any of us who get to go exclusively live in a bubble. And so we're doing that all day long. And we just, I think, need to help students be able to reflect that differently.
Debra Wilson: Well, and I love that notion of helping them like, exercise agency. Like what is something they can have agency over or engage with? What are some examples you've seen at schools, you know, where you like, you know, whether it's a particular exercise or a way that they're, you know, engaging students or student voices in process like, like what what are some of the things that you've seen schools do, some examples that you're like, wow, like that's really thoughtful about how they're doing it? And it's giving those kids like a chance to sort of try it out, to try out their skills?
Mia Charity: Absolutely. We do a lot of work with the Hockaday School in Dallas, and Dallas is one of the first communities that we decided to take our deliberation program on the road to. And they have a great school culture that is very accepting and a great, just the best sort of environment to foster what good deliberation in practice looks like for students in schools.
And so they had, they've had students come on programs that we've done in partnership with NAIS. But we've also done work with them where students have come to other programs and now the high school students are, you know, being the facilitators of deliberation for middle school students. And so they are taking what they've learned to younger students and being the example of that. And now we're taking university students and having them be the facilitators with us for high school students. So really demonstrating that it doesn't need to be also adults fully exercising what the framework looks like and how do we build the right opportunities for students to build those skills and use it as a leadership opportunity in the school. And I think Hockaday has done a really good job at that work.
Debra Wilson: That's excellent. Yeah, so you mentioned the partnership with NAIS and Close Up, and you know, we've done a good amount of work together over the last few years. So what are you hoping students take away from experiences like the student leadership summit that we do together?
Mia Charity: You know, I think it is the same thing that we've been talking about this whole time, is that, you know, it's not, we can have a deliberation on a specific issue, AI policy. But once you understand the framework of all of that, you can apply it to anything. You know, we had a student, I can't remember which school it was from now, but you know, she wrote her college application essay about how she uses deliberation to engage with peers who don't agree with her on her football picks. And so she's thought about this really broad way of thinking about deliberation and navigating people who she didn't agree with.
And so I just think that that has been one of the most novel examples of what you hope young people go back and take away from this, but really also taking away the excitement that they want to share it with someone else. And so not only sharing that with peers, but I think we are also trying to figure out ways in which students can share their experience with their parents when they get home, because you know, maybe they can pass it along. I mean, I'm, I feel like more adults need help with deliberation and talking across difference than students do. And so I think creating some ways that they take the experience and continue it, continue to build on and setting up a framework to further expand on what that looks like.
And for us at Close Up, we have been over the last year piloting a civil discourse credential, which sort of marries, you know, what we hope students to take away from an individual experience in terms of critical thinking, media literacy, AI literacy, talking across difference, and giving them some next steps of how do you continue to build on this. And also here's a framework where we're going to really create an opportunity for you to demonstrate all of the things we were talking about before, like you're doing the critical thinking in your math, science, all these other classes. How do we create the right framework that demonstrates that in a way that young people can show that to their employers on LinkedIn and include with their transcript for a university? Because, you know, as we do, as we've seen over the last couple of years in the university space especially, you've seen a pop-up of all of these new civil discourse institutes.
Now all of these universities clearly had civic engagement, voter registration, all these other kinds of civic engagement activities happen, but I think this new recognition in the university space is telling us that we need to help young people better demonstrate how they're already doing this work. And the young people that they want at their universities are practiced in this thing that they are putting new focus on. And so I think really, the ability for them to have some next steps that build on the skill development and a means to demonstrate that I've got a whole high school career of these examples that show I am competent in civic skills.
Debra Wilson: Yeah, it was I was talking with Rick Weissbourg at Making Caring Common before they did their latest Turning the Tide report. And he was talking about that actually, from college admissions officers just looking for students who didn't want to just engage in change, but actually knew how to engage to bring about change in healthy ways. You know, and it was fascinating that that was something that bubbled up so much for them and the groundwork that you're talking about. And you know, it sounds like your credential is kind of getting to that place.
And it's fascinating to me how much that's coming up with you know, even when schools are, you know, talking about hiring educators, like how do we help this this be a universal skill set, whether it's, you know, across the students, across the adults, like and you know, help us, you know, kind of bridge these divides?
Mia Charity: I think it's an interesting time to have this conversation because of the overlap of the AI conversations and panic and what do we do next of it all, in terms of what does the job market look like? What do we want, you know? And that, in turn, means what do we want education to look like for young people?
And at the end of the day, it's those skills that seem to be consistent and not replaceable by AI. Who knows? I don't know the latest model projections.
Debra Wilson: Right, right. We could be two bots talking to each other in a couple of years. Yes.
Mia Charity: Yeah. Correct. I'll send you my hologram next.
But I think marrying this political polarization moment and AI and thinking about how we want young people to, what skills, what takeaways from education we want them to have is really interesting. And it's such a fundamental conversation about what do we want even education to mean for young people, that I think it's a moment in time where it feels like the right time to think about how we combine what's happening in the classroom, what's happening with experiences that feel like Close Up and all the other programs like YMCA and Model UN that add to this sort of civic skill box, we've got to figure out a way that we help pull all those disconnected dots together in a way that really better demonstrate and showcase that students are are prepared in many ways and help us better assess where the gaps are for the future. But those skills are, seem to me like, you know, they're durable skills. So.
Debra Wilson: Yeah, we used to call them soft skills, right? And now we're realizing like, you know, as being human actually becomes more important, that they are in fact durable skills.
So if you were a betting person, what's the one thing schools could do tomorrow that would have the greatest positive impact on the future of American democracy? Like I know that's like a, it's, you know, part of Close Up, right? Being in civics education, supporting democracy, and I think you're completely right, right? Like we look at this future of AI, and AI feels so big, like it feels existential. And we look at, you know, the purpose of education, like, you know, I think a lot of people agree that it has shifted in some ways. You know, how we're thinking about what do kids need to take from education? Like where would you place your bets on either what schools should be doing or maybe what they should be developing? What's on your ingredient list of the things that you wish schools would be thinking more about or spending more time developing?
Mia Charity: Well, there are the schools, right, that are chomping at the bit. They see this as a real key ingredient for, you know, the holistic student, right? But I think there are still a lot of schools that are apprehensive about providing opportunities for young people to engage on anything that feels political. And I think that they are right to be cautious.
Debra Wilson: Yeah, I mean some of those can go sideways, right? Like I mean it it's you know, yeah.
Mia Charity: Absolutely, absolutely. But I think people should be less afraid than they are. I think young people, like we said before, rise to the occasion. I think when you have the right resources for teachers that, you know, make it easy for them to have a conversation in their class about current issues, to get the party started. That's the entry point.
You don't have to host a school-wide deliberation that decides the new cell phone policy. Like the entry point can be regular conversation, paying attention to the news, like, but there should be something that helps young people think about their community, how they fit into their community, and what they can be doing to to be good citizens before they vote, before they, what's a good citizen in my school community, my church community, my…however you're defining community, we all have a role to play in that.
And so I think that schools should be a little braver. And if I could also give them, you know, more time—
Debra Wilson: —Yes, a lot more time.
Mia Charity: A lot more time, because there are real practical limitations on, you know, making deliberation and these experiences part of every single class. Like, got it. You've got to get to the testing and all of those things that are required. But it's…there is a way to find those opportunities for young people in school and out of school.
So I'd say, you know, if you don't have the capacity at your school to do it, look to partners like Close Up to help add support for your teachers, for your school to create those opportunities. Because I, you know, school administrators have a zillion and one things to think about, classroom teachers, same, same. And so, sometimes you just need an additional resource to think about how to do that. And so I would say schools that want to also do more, ask for help. Like there are plenty of organizations. Close Up obviously should be your first pick. But there are plenty of organizations that can help supplement what great educators are doing in the classroom, make it engaging for young people, and have it connect to what they want the school to be, which is, you know, a part of the community that they're sitting in.
And so I think just connecting the dots away from that, that feels like it's political to, no, we're a community and we need to understand the things that impact our community members here, to be a good citizen here, and the school, it provides a great opportunity for that.
Debra Wilson: Thank you so much, Mia, for joining us today. I look forward to our next conversation as always, and our continuing partnership.
Mia Charity: Thank you so much, Debra. We always love partnering with NAIS and anytime I get to hang out with you is wonderful.